How to sell stuff online
Project Ignite Podcast by Derek Gehl The Secret Behind Successful Sales with Marlon Sanders
00:00:00 00:00:00
  • Episode  16
  • Derek Gehl


In this episode I talk with Internet marketing legend Marlon Sanders about how to sell stuff online. In this day and age, shiny and slick graphics can take over the priority list, but you won’t be successful if you don’t understand how to sell. We talk about the future of mobile business (goodbye desktops!) and how to push traffic from one platform to the next.

Transcript: How To Sell Stuff Online – Marlon Sanders Shares 20+ Years Of Experience

Welcome to the Project Ignite podcast, this is your host, Derek Gehl. Today I have what I would consider one of the founding fathers of Internet marketing; someone that’s been making a living online for longer than just about anyone I know, and has really been empowering other people to do the same for a very long time. So without further ado, welcome Marlon Sanders to the show.

Marlon, thank you very much for being here.

Hi Derek! Glad to be here. I’m not sure if I’m a founding father but I have been doing this full time longer than most people. We have a lot to talk about and I’m excited because we haven’t been able to talk very much in a few years. So it should be an interesting conversation between us and letting people listen in.

I think over the past fifteen years… How long have you been online? When did you get started?

Well I was marketing online, I had AOL and Compuserve pre-world wide web, and then I was hired to be a copywriter for a marketing guru at the time who spoke at Gary Halburt events and so forth, and this thing came along called the Internet, pre-world wide web days, and Phil, my boss, he was aggressively doing what he could at the time. He saw the opportunity but he didn’t fully understand it yet so he wasn’t sure how to cash in on it. So then we started doing seminars in 1996 around the world on Internet marketing. Then we started doing the Boulder Seminars in 1997-98.

The Boulder Seminars, wow. That was the first Internet marketing seminar I’d ever been to.

The first four or five; I think there were a few others doing it too but there certainly weren’t many.

If you were doing those events in 1996, they had to be one of the first if not the first in that space.

There was maybe a couple other events. You know, it’s funny, because you have such a self-centric view of the world, but there’s all these things that I heard about that I didn’t even know were happening because it’s such a big world out there. I’ve been around a long time, and seen so many changes–especially the last few years. When the Internet came along, the pace just accelerated. In some way you’d have thought they’d have slowed down, but they seem to be getting faster.

I agree, they are getting faster, and that’s something I want to explore with you today. Here’s my take on it. The reason it’s getting faster and faster is because the barrier to entry from a technical standpoint is so low now.
If we think back to the late 90s, and you wanted to build a webpage, you needed to know HTML. You needed to know ordering systems. It wasn’t easy. But now you’ve got things like LeadPages, ClickFunnels, anybody can go in there and set everything up. So now with this low barrier to entry, there’s more and more people hopping online.

I think that’s a great point. It’s interesting, because my first affiliate program was with something called HyperMall, and there weren’t very many features back then. My first ebooks was in DreamBooks or something like that, you just had so few tools. There’s lower barrier to entry, but there’s also a higher barrier to entry… You have thousands of people coming on now, but the difference is that–let me give you an example. The other day, I was talking to a really talented guy–nineteen years old–he’s doing SAS Software with a team of programmers and his launch designs for his products are amazing. And he’s doing video that looks pro. He’ll do a million dollars this year. He understands the fundamentals of successful sales.
What I’m saying is that we have brand new people on the Internet today, but they are putting out really high quality stuff. That’s what I mean. It’s not like the influx of people are creating shotty work. You mentioned ClickFunnels and LeadPages, I’m not sure how some of it is getting done. I see stuff from relatively new people, and I’m so impressed.

I had never heard of the guy you sent me earlier, but it looked great. The presentation was phenomenal. But I’m still pretty sure he was using ClickFunnels, professional photos, screen caps and stock images. But he’d created this incredible presentation, so you’re right, the bar has been raised as far as minimum levels of quality to actively compete. There’s no question.
That brings me to an interesting question. You’ve been involved in this for a very long time–you were a copywriter. Were you copywriting before the Internet?

What happened was I was writing for Phil while the text-based Internet existed. He had a direct mail driven business and so I was writing direct mail and a catalogue. They did a lot of phone sales, and they had a really slick thing. They were doing $3,000 900 number seminars, and they were selling Phil 60 new customers per day. He had zero lead cost expense. So I was writing copy for him, and then he hired Lou Williams to write copy, and he also helped me with mine. That’s how I got into this. I was writing for clients, and freelancing, and after I got pretty good I was paid well to write those letters.

Let’s go back to the 90s. You could’ve taken a good direct response long sales letter, put it online without graphics, and get good results. I think we can agree that things have changed, now, as far as presentation and design and layout. How would you compare the sales process that you were taking people through ten years ago to what we take people through today online? Are there any fundamental differences outside of the presentation?

That’s a great question. I’m mid-fifties, and it’s not an excuse to say that you don’t change as easily as you do in your mid-thirties, but it’s also true. Not that you can’t change, but it’s like a deep groove that you need to get out of. The long and short answer is that I think things have changed dramatically. Like that guy I sent you before we met up, he’s selling high quality products, but he doesn’t have any long form sales letters. He has video sales letters, and webinars, but there is no long form sales letters. When you see those, they’re for something that’s ten bucks.
What seems to have vanished is the long form sales letter for big ticket items. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t work, what it means is–they’re very hard to write, and people aren’t usually good enough to write them–it takes less skill to do webinar and video. People are selling more big tickets with those. Having said that, I sold a hundred dollar product with a PDF sales letter. My graphic design artist was busy working on a new product, and I didn’t want to distract her from it, but I don’t want to hire someone else to do it. So I said, screw it, I’m going to put together a PDF. I don’t think it sold as well as it would have if I’d put out a slick online presentation, but I’m just an old-school writer. I find webinars and video sales letters to be a little gruelling. Do you?

I just finished a video sales letter yesterday, and in some ways it was easier, but in other ways, it was more difficult.

Let’s hear it.

With long form sales letters, I find it’s easier to really sell a product and dig into your features and benefits. Whereas in a video sales letter, you can’t go into that much detail, otherwise it’s going to be an hour long. I’m actually going to split test for an event coming up. I’m going to do a VSL with a simple call to action underneath it, and then I’m going to do a VSL with a modified long form sales letter underneath, and then I’m probably going to do one without the VSL. I’m curious as to the best way to go when selling those products that aren’t thousands of dollars.

Three things about this. John Benson is the high-end guy selling VSL software. He’s going for two or three thousand, and his average VSL is 40 minutes. You’re right, though, you still can’t get that in depth like you do with copy. Number two, there’s a few things people are doing. One is that they’ll take a transcript of the webinar and stick it below the webinar itself. Some people do the transcript or the sales letter on the exit from the webinar. Agora went to that. Agora and Phillips are the two largest publishers of financial newsletters in the world. Agora went a hundred percent to VSLs, some of which are an hour long, and they do the sales letter on exit.

So you’ve got a VSL, and if they exit the page, it displays a sales letter.

Some of their VSLs are great. Some of it’s even in studio so it looks like a faux news broadcast. Are you selling anything in the last two years that’s bigger ticket with long form sales letters, or have you almost exclusively gone to VSLs or webinars?

For big ticket I’ve gone exclusively with webinar. I can’t argue with the results. With VSLs, anyone can get access to it. But in my experience, with big ticket items, a webinar is hands down the highest converting. To take people to a live event and create urgency and a better selling environment… I can’t match it with anything else.

I have a question for you, then. Question number one is: you do a split email test, right? Half the people go to the VSL and the webinar sign up–you can’t look at the conversions alone. You have to look at the dollars per click. Because half of the people that sign up aren’t going to show up.


If they show up, they may not stick around. So have you compared the dollars per click?

That’s a great question. So here’s the closest I’ve done. That was to post a workshop with a follow-up webinar, I’d open to a Q&A after the sales process, and then, I realized I didn’t want to do a live webinar. I was too tired. So I recorded effectively a VSL, publish it live, and drive people to it. I was picking up 15-20% close on that webinar when it was live, but when I pushed it out in effectively a VSL I closed 0%. I want to say, is that statistically relevant? Probably not, but having that live feeling seems to add a different element to it.

Now here’s another one. This is so interesting, because I hear so many different sides. I have a friend that closes four times more people live webinar versus recording. I have other friends that record webinars and get nearly as good results. And then there’s a hybrid, the Stealth Seminar has the just-in-time feature, and it’s killing it. Here’s the difference: if you send it to a recording, they know it’s not live, they blow it off. The trouble with the traditional webinar is that live, it’s scheduled for say, four days from now. Thirty per cent of the people that have signed up are going to show up. But then Stealth Seminar comes along, you sign up, and the webinar starting page comes up, and it tells you that the webinar is coming up at the top of the next hour wherever you are.
They don’t know it’s recorded. There’s one time, and what’s interesting, is if you leave that browser open, and you go muck about in your other windows, at the top of the hour, that pops up.

It’s brilliant.

It pops up right in your face. I always do that, I forget about it, but as the webinar starts, it comes up in your face. They’ve got a fantastic function. It’s a big difference. If you’re doing a webinar live in a few days, you’re going to lose so many people. But with the just-in-time feature, 90 to 95% are on the webinar.

That’s incredible.

It’s a massive difference. The brilliance is that they don’t know it’s recorded.

I can’t say enough good things about Stealth Seminars, and Jeff.

Have you tried it?

I haven’t explored it yet.

See I had Stealth and I just didn’t know it. You kind of don’t want to spread it around, because the guys that are doing this have such a massive advantage. There’s a reason that they’re quiet about it. It’s the silver bullet.

It’s buried there. Stealth is so awesome. They need to sell that.

I use EasyWebinars. I have Evergreen, but I gotta say, EasyWebinar is just so easy. When I heard this about just-in-time, I figured, EasyWeb must have that. Or I could hack it. So if you want a great tip. If you have a feature that the person puts on their must have list, and the competition doesn’t have it, you’ve just locked out all the competition. We’ve come a long way in sales, and everything is so sophisticated, people drown in complexity. But here’s something simple: if you can find one thing that they feel they’ve got to have, and no one else has it, you’ve got to hammer it to death.
In the age of social media, you’ve got to put it everywhere. You get your lock and you broadcast it to anyone that will listen.

How to sell stuff online

So I want to change directions a little bit. Socials. Socials didn’t exist for a really long time. You’re quite active, and now we’re about to go into this new world of Periscope and Meerkat and such. So my first question is what are you doing with socials right now that’s working well for you?

This is kind of embarrassing, but I’ve only used Periscope a few times. It’s not that I don’t want to, but I was a slow adopter because of wishful thinking. There are times where you have to be honest and say, I was slow, I didn’t want to adopt. I did this with web designs. So we’re deciding on which tool to use that I feel we can have an infrastructure that I can live with. So I’m in the midst of these things, creating new products, but also the sales process from long forms to VSLs. This is a challenge to me because I’m not a verbal salesperson. I’m a writer.
So long story short, I haven’t been on Periscope or Meerkat very much. If I had my iPhone, I’ve had at least one person add me on Periscope. It’s blowing up, and I’m hardly even doing anything. It’s like when the Internet came along, and you either adapted or you didn’t; if you can find the time, I think you need to adopt these things.

Let’s dig into these two things, then. Meerkat and Periscope. I’m with you, I haven’t fully jumped into those yet. I’ve set up a Periscope, put up a few videos, and people are following me. So I’m interested to see how these platforms roll out. They’re kind of like interruption advertising. If you create a great piece of content and push it out there, there’s the real time people out there that will join you. But if you follow a few people on there, every hour, there’s a few new things asking for your attention. I have to shut it off. It interrupts my day. But–

You can download those. Grant Cardone has his behind a gate. You opt-in on his website, and he’s uploaded his best streams to his website.

Are they on YouTube?

No, they let you download them straight to your hard drive. When you finish a Periscope, it let’s you download it. So then he just uploads it to his media server and sticks it behind an opt-in.

We’ve got all these channels now. I have a young guy that works for me here, and he’s into all of these platforms. I’m looking at everything and thinking, this is a ton of content to grow and maintain. Where do you focus your time? So being able to reuse content is great but how are you managing all of these different channels?

Well I have a new product that’s going to be super smoking hot. I know that if I’m working on a product, someone else is probably working on the same thing right now. So I’m pushing to get it out first. So what I was doing before this, you get into a routine. You take your iPhone, and while you’re waiting for your lunch, you snap something in Snapchat. You edit it, and then you post it to Pinterest, Twitter, and Facebook. Then you pop over to Instagram, and post it there. So with one deal, you can upload it to all of those services. I also use WordSwag, which lets you put words on the photo.
The snag I ran into was that if you’re using WordSwag and their stock photos, while most of those are in the public domain, if some slip in that aren’t, you’re gonna wind up with a bill for two or three thousand dollars from Getty Images per photo. I don’t know how closely those are screened. A friend of mine got a bill for using something that looked like a public domain but wasn’t and he had to pay up.
The only thing is, at my age, when you’re under 35, you can post any photo of yourself any time and you look great. Me? If I take a picture out in the sunlight, I looked like death warmed over. I look awful. If I take it indoors with good lighting, it’s not as bad. But I ran into a snag because social media is heavily slanted towards younger people. So I post a lot of pictures of social media. That’s okay. I don’t have to have my own picture in there. But where I live is limited. So I’m running out of ideas of what to take pictures of.
People that are really good at this, like Betty Rocker on Instagram, she sucks people into a fitness funnel. But she’s posting pictures of her working out, showing off her abs.
I’m not sure if I answered your question. I can’t remember what you look like, Derek, but if you’re like me, people don’t like looking at your photos like they do young people’s.

So I’m gonna take a different direction now. Social media is–

It’s the future! It’s rocking! Meerkat, all these streaming services, they’re gonna change the world. It’s not Google Hangouts or YouTube where its talking heads and no interaction. With Meerkat and Periscope you have the text chat interaction. Meerkat also has cameos, where I can pop you up for 60 seconds into my stream. Grant Cardone is using this like crazy. It’s amazing. He sells products this way too.

That’s massive.

It’s going to change the world. The number one girl on Meerkat right now, a supermodel, she does these chats while she’s cooking dinner or walking her dog, and it’s not her doing a talking heads thing, she’s interacting with your texts while she’s cooking or walking or dancing around. You feel like you know her. She’s having a seminar in Las Vegas where everyone can go hang out with her.

So for those guys getting started, where are you spending your time? Where would you start building your platform?

You start on Periscope. If you’re going to do two, Meerkat as well. Then I’d combine it with YouTube. And then into webinars. You wouldn’t want to push people from video-based media to your Facebook page, say, which is all text based. From Periscope, to Meerkat, to YouTube.

So you funnel people into webinars from YouTube?

And Meerkat and Periscope. But setting them over to YouTube really enhances your pool because you control the environment then.

Then, the webinars, where you spend money to be a part of that,  like Grant Cardone’s, you were saying, $50. What’s the mark up after that?

Around $1000. And then they go up after that. Then you hit the phones. You buy something for seven or ten, at that point, you’re on the phones.

For everyone listening, what we just walked through there was an A to Z funnel combining an offline component too. A lot of people fall apart when they don’t consider what their funnel actually is. Maybe you’re driving people to the wrong media. Going from Periscope or Meerkat to YouTube and then to Webinar, selling that first webinar, getting the invested customers, and then moving them to an offline channel with the sales team.

People are going to say, yeah, that’s a lot of work. But it’s gonna make you a hundred million dollars a year.

And if you don’t want to do that, you can skip the phone room and stick to webinars and still make a pretty healthy income.

I bet you could do a million off webinars, along with coaching.

You’re right. Coaching isn’t a huge part of my business today. I used to have a huge team. We had our own call centre. That was all there. It was a pain in the ass. I personally don’t want to go through all of that again. We have a boutique coaching firm, it’s me and two people that I trust. You can create something that generates income on a smaller scale.
Now I want to loop back because we’re starting to wrap up here. We’ve been talking about lots of stuff. I know you’ve been helping people for over 15 years, you’ve made a lot of products aimed at helping people getting started to really accelerate what they’re doing. So my question to you is, when someone is getting started online, all of this stuff can be really overwhelming. What is the advice that you give them?

Great question. I’m sure you get that question every day; how do you help people? It evolves. It always depends on the individuals. One of my guys, who’s been a customer for a long time, he’s working on his first product but he’s not quite advanced enough, what he likes doing is video and talking head videos, but he’s not a spring chicken. He’s just found something that he’s good at, and I told him, keep doing that. You’re good at it. For him, it’s about getting traction, because he’s not yet generating leads.
I usually recommend the same thing you were doing in 2000 with IMC. I still run an affiliate program. It’s a changing market because the zoo now is about software as service, which a newbie will have problems with. For newbies in the IM niche, the best spot is the WSO market because the customer doesn’t expect software for $7. There’s a lady named Barn Lean, that sells these little cheat sheets that she sells for $2 or $3 per unit. But she makes $200,000 per year working only a few hours a day. That’s not bad at all. Simple products, no fancy web design, she doesn’t use ClickFunnels or anything.
If you’re in niches it’s a bit easier depending on the niche. Some are super competitive. But you can still just call people and get them to promote affiliates that way. I really wish I was better with numbers, though, Derek. Details. I have a friend that runs Big Mouth Marketing. His partner in the business generated 700,000 leads of University of Phoenix. Peter is a Facebook Jedi Master. So just yesterday he put up a new funnel, and day one, he got five hundred leads at a buck thirty three each. And the funnel goes into a two thousand dollar product back ended by three thousand dollar per month coaching. That’s day one. No optimization or upping the budget yet. He’s got great attention to detail. A one day retargeting custom audience, three day custom audience, massive email sequences. How about that? I didn’t get that concept until he showed me yesterday and my jaw dropped.
Imagine being able to send out a piece of direct mail that’s a hundred per cent customized to demonstrated interest by that person. You know what they’re clicking or watching now. Anyways. A new person thinks, dynamic sequence, I don’t think I could deal with that. Me, I’m not good with details. I’m a personality driven marketer. I do my social media and my affiliate program. I’m getting Peter to slowly teach me about Facebook ads. They’re so incredible now. Twitter ads, too. A new person can go in there with a decent funnel and can ramp up really quickly with Facebook ads.

For the cost per click, nothing matches up to Facebook in terms of high quality and reliable traffic.

I don’t know if you know the people doing this or not, but it blows me away. I had a friend named Claire. She joined a coaching program that teaches you to hold consultation sessions, and raised her price to $3000. Her second month doing that, she went from $10,000 per month to $10,000 per month. If someone can just do the Facebook ads, then send them to the webinar, and then to the strategy session, for $3000 or $4000 projects, you can make a ton of money. In a matter of two or three months.
The associate programs I think are great. For the new person, if they can have someone teach them Facebook ads the right way, I think you need that. Are we in sync on this?

A hundred per cent in sync. Don’t reinvent the wheel. It’s gonna cost you so much. Pick something and focus on it. Whether that’s building a funnel out of Facebook ads–just don’t try to do everything. Master it.

What are you putting your new people into?

I’ve got clients in every niche imaginable. I’m not in one place or the other. My message to anybody: if you have a product, find out where your audience is. If you’re selling physical products, you should be tapping into eBay or Amazon, where people are looking for that kind of thing. If you’re selling information, you should be on Facebook, Ad Words, content marketing. Every business is a little bit different, and you need to find where your market is, and then how to engage with that audience wherever it is. I’ve always had a bit of a beef with the “this is the number one traffic strategy out there” but there isn’t one thing that works for every single business.
Where do I think the biggest opportunities exist today? For just about every business, Facebook is a great place to be. If you’re selling physical goods and merchandise, stuff that people are buying on Amazon, tapping into the eBays is really important.
Marlon Sanders How To Sell Online
The last thing that just popped into my head that I want to come back to because I think it’s an incredibly important but overlooked skill: people won’t be successful unless they understand how to sell. The whole sales sequence. The sequence itself, in my opinion, hasn’t changed very much in the past 12 or 15 years.


I know what still works for me. People still buy benefits. They’re still interested in themselves and not your products.

That’s my point. People get on Facebook and try to model successful entrepreneurs, but they don’t understand what they’re modelling. Even today, it doesn’t matter if you’re putting together a VSL, or a long form sales letter; the most important skill is knowing how to sell. At the end of the day, that’s copywrirting. You mentioned Jon Benson’s Sellerator. The core structure exists there.
What’s cool is once you get into the psychology of the VSLs, you’re looking at stuff like reframing and pattern interrupts.

On top of a basic sales structure, he’s layering on more advanced techniques.

That’s exactly it. But when you peel it all back, you’re still starting with a headline. The format and the strategy hasn’t changed. So is it that fundamentally different? No. What I love about Jon is that he’s a great copywriter. He’s got a quasi-software that instead of putting something into a sales letter, it makes it into a powerpoint. Then you fire up your Camtasia and there you go.
If you don’t have a good message, or process, or funnel, you’re not going to get a result.

There’s one guy I know that charges people $15,000 for an eight week program. Here’s what they’re going to do. They don’t need any branding. No slick graphics. One single Lead Pages sign up page with an iPhone page. It goes from the opt-in to the Stealth Seminars just-in-time webinar. Webinar starts, it goes to a very basic application, like survey monkey, and then there’s the phones. There’s no branding or anything. That’s the whole model. Plus Facebook ads. It’s interesting. The fancy graphics come in on the Facebook newsfeed ad. It’s a lot cheaper than what you and I were doing in the old days.

But it works. Everyone coming online seeing the really fancy products and video launches–if you have a great offer, and a great funnel, you can still be massively successful with that.

Exactly. It’s really about the offer. People are doing big firework shows of launches. But to do a hundred grand a month, you don’t have to do that.

Look at Ryan Deiss. All of his VSLs are very basic and it works so well. That’s why I think you’ve been around so long, is that you really know how to sell. If there’s one message that I’d take from our call today, it all comes down to learning about how to sell.

Socials is all about traffic. You’ve got to have the people to sell to, and the way that you’re going to sell to them. But there is a transition from traditional long form sales letters to webinars or VSLs. This is a bit of a different skill set. I can say that because the translation for me is still the same sales structure, but it is a bit different on a webinar. I’m used to granular detail on sales letters, but you can’t do that on VSLs. There’s an adjustment to be made. You were the one to point out that you can’t go into that granular detail.

If I had to pick which is easier, I’d have to say VSLs.

A lot of people would agree. Lots of people can do VSLs but not long form letters.

Exactly. It’s an interesting time. Right now we’re in a time of transition–

But let me ask you a question. For you, since the IMC days to how you run your business today, what is the single biggest difference?

The biggest difference is the infrastructure in terms of technology and manpower required to create a certain amount of income has drastically changed. Today, I can run a business that does seven figures per year, and I can do that from my laptop. I don’t need data centres or programmers. The biggest change for me now is that I have the freedom to sit down and put together a sales funnel without having to code a damn thing. The biggest difference from when I had a hundred people and two offices is the ability to create more income, have more scalability, without the overhead or the headaches.

Offices and employees devour money.

To keep the lights on, when we were making $30m per year, our base cost was over a half million dollars a month. That’s not even including sales costs. That’s the interesting part about Internet companies like this. It changes quickly. So the ability to scale up and utilize all of this cool technology that’s elastic with our business is huge.

I hope what people get out of this is that it’s okay to get into marketing for money, but if you lose touch with the basic excitements of marketing, that’s when you’ve lost. I’ve been in this full time since 1996. I’m still excited about your test. I’m Skyping Peter Visser at 5am over my morning coffee yesterday going over his Facebook ads because it excites me. We talk a lot about selling and social media, but I think there’s a core excitement and fascination more with the processes and the discovery about performing that just-in-time versus Sellerator test.

Absolutely. I can say that of any mastermind group I’ve been a part of over the past few years, 95% of those people all share that excitement.

They’re still turned on by it.

It’s beautiful that we can do this without going to the office.

You’re talking about the mobility of low overhead, but people are already preparing to ditch the desktops. We may not even have those in the future. You can run your business from your laptop, pretty soon you’re gonna run it from your iPad.

We’re pretty close to that. So I think in theory you can.

You’re going to be mobile. Not like you were at IMC. Now you’re entering this mobile thing where if you’re good at the cloud based technology, you can put everything on the cloud. You can take and have a 100% cloud based business run from an iPad.

Other than heavy content creation, everything else, you can do it all from an iPad just fine.

I will say some of those video editing programs I have on my iPad are pretty robust.

I was really surprised by that. It’s all cloud based, too, so I can use my Adobe app to access it all. I poured a whole glass of water on my laptop a few weeks ago, totally fried it, walked down to the Apple Store and a few hours later was back up and running. It’s a different world now. We don’t need servers or any of that stuff.
Alright. We’ve blown way over our time here Marlon and I’ve really enjoyed this session. So how can people reach out to you, or follow you? Sounds like you’ve got something in the works right now.

Yeah we’ve got a few products in the works. But the best thing is just to participate in some of my free content. is my page, I post a lot of links to other content on there. And my blog is Plug in, see what I’m about.

I’ll post all of those links in the shownotes. You’ll find this episode and along with the transcription. Marlon, thank you for taking the time today. I really enjoyed it.

It was a lot of fun, Derek. I hope that everyone took something away from this. Maybe they have a vision of their future with a mobile business. That’s right on the horizon for us.

There was a lot of information in there, like Marlon said, and I knew we would because Marlon has been around for such a long time. Anyways, if you like this podcast, make sure you subscribe on iTunes, leave us a rating or a review, and as always, you can get the whole transcription and shownotes on the website. We’ve got some more exciting episodes coming up in the near future, thank you very much everybody. This is Derek Gehl, signing off. See you next time.

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